Finally some real numbers on Buffalo Bore

oldgranpa said:

This is all very interesting but disturbing in the sense that first it's OK and then it's maybe OK but now it seems it's too risky. Those of you who have fired BB in your LCPs and P380s haven't had a kaboom and only the side plate problem reported. Since it now appears that Kahr is not going to stand behind the P380 if damaged by BB, do we dare shoot it?? Or will Buffalo Bore take the blame for a damaged pistol??
Another question, what pistols does Buffalo Bore say are safe with their ammo?? What pistols have THEY fired it in???

Still waiting for my P380 but I have a box of BB on hand that I bought initially when you all had tried it and said you would even carry it for CCW. So maybe I should take it down to my dealer and let him sell if for me for whatever I can get.

Not too happy about all this and seems Buffalo Bore has sold us some baloney.

og

Click to expand...

gramps, shoot the darn BB when u get the P380. It will handle them. One can't expect kahr to state any different than what their statement was. They specify saami rounds only and that just makes good sense. No different that loading your own and blowing it up also. No kahrs have been blown up by any round as of now, the BB has not done any damage to any P380 excpet kraigster side plate came loose and I still debate whether the BB round did that My opinion is was a bad plate or not in right from the factory. I seriously doubt if any back pressure from the BB round would get back that far on that gun to do such a thing, but that being said. when a round like BB well exceeds the limits of saami standard 380, then it is time to start thinking about one using his head to. If you need more power, then get a 9mm. these barrels on these 380 like the kahrs, lcp and kt are not 2" thick, that should be the first hint of staying withing factory saaami stuff.

My corbon 90hp seems to fly out of my P380 very well with enough ump to please me and I doubt if the BG willknow if he wa shit by a 90grain hp or a BB round..

Jocko, we have been around the bush many time with the side plate/BB issue and I stand by my belief (backed up by the techies at Kahr) that the excess pressure of the BB round was sufficient to knock the plate slightly out of alignment. There is no absolute when it comes to determining how the pressure in the P380 is vented unless you do some serious testing. Keep in mind as I said before, only one corner of the slide plate became dislodged - maybe 2mm. And after re-positioning it with my finger and reverting back to standard pressure ammo, there has NEVER been a recurrence. One can conclude therefore that it is NOT an out of spec plate. Was the plate slightly out of kilter when I took delivery of the gun and just never noticed it? Possibly but I doubt it.

Bottom line, you use BB at your own risk and I believe a prudent person would be ill-advised to feed a steady diet of the stuff to his P380. I have no idea what Kahr's position is if you show up with a broken gun the result of shooting BB, whether any P380 has actually come to an untimely end because of shooting BB, or what to tell folks who have bought BB and want to try it. It's hot stuff, I think the P380 can handle it in moderation but I don't recommend its use. If you want more performance out of your P380 you might want to consider getting a 9mm. 'Not sure what more can be said folks.

I'm not at all concerned about the side plate, pro or con. But before we let the buffalo roam, I did a comparison of specs for BB v.s. Double Tap ammo. Here's what I got....

DOUBLE TAP 380 ACP 90gr. Bonded Defense JHP 50rds. $34.95...(per round before shipping $0.70)
(data from DT website)
This loading makes the 380ACP really perform like it should!
There is virtually no muzzle flash.
For those of you who carry a 380ACP, this is an excellent defensive load.
Standard pressure loading.
Velocity: 1000fps / Kel-Tec P3AT and Ruger LCP
3.5" bbl Bersa Thunder - 1100fps
Bullet: Bonded Defense JHP
Muzzle Energy: 200 ft. lbs. Kel-Tec
242 ft. lbs. 3.5" bbl Bersa Thunder
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

oldgranpa's velocities: with a Bersa 380CC, 3.2" barrel
Rem GS.......886.2....843.2.....933.0 fps
SpeerGD......910.8....953.4.....919.1......956.6 fps
Win SXT.......856.5....956.7.....823.5......856.9 fps
CB DPX........1030.....1047 fps
Win Rang......906.8....937.0....904.7......916.7 fps
DoubTap........1042....1017.....1067.......1022 fps
Rem UMC.....878.4....935.5....1010.......887.2 fps

and with an AMT, 2.5" barrel
UMC FMJ 95gr 859.9fps
Rem GS JHP 90gr 795.3fps
Speer GD JHP 90gr 905.4fps
Fed PD HS JHP 90gr 831.8fps
Hndy XTP JHP 90gr 834.6fps
Win Ranger T JHP 95gr 857.3fps
DoubleTap JHP 90gr 1043fps

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BUFFALO BORE 380 Auto +P Ammo - 90 gr. Jacketed Hollow Point (1200fps M.E. 288 ft. lbs. - 20 Round Box Our Price: $24.12 (price per round before shipping....$1.21)
(data from Buffalo Bore website)
Item 27C/20 is a 90gr. Jacketed Hollow Point bullet and is the only hollow nosed expanding bullet we trust to expand reliably, yet penetrate deep enough to be lethal on a drugged up, pain free attacker. It is traveling over 1,200 fps out of my BDA (Browning Double Action) with its 3.75 inch barrel. This bullet is truly bonded and will mushroom to about .55 caliber and not lose any weight, thus penetrating quite deeply in human matter. You should expect about 10+ inches of penetration in flesh and bone. We've utilized the very same flash suppressed powders that we've used in our two other 380 auto +P loads. If you like the idea of the extra big hole this expanding load makes in human flesh, we would advise that you load this bullet in your chamber, followed by a magazine full of our non-expanding loads. So, if the first shot does not incapacitate the attacker, your magazine is full of ammo that will, if you can put the bullet in his spine or brain from any angle. Note my "real world" velocities from my personal "real world" pistols.
1. BDA-3.75 inch barrel----1218 fps
2. Walther PPK-3.5 inch barrel-----1200 fps
3. Colt Mustang Pocket Lite-2.75 inch barrel---1123 fps
4. Keltec---1100 fps
------------------------------------------------
So say what you want, but I'm going with what kraigster is advising. I might still dare to test it and do a velocity test, but I'm having second thoughts since the Double Tap tests I did had a pretty stiff recoil. The claimed velocities of BB above seem even more severe.

og.......still waiting.

Ah, but the DPX bullet is a litewt copper, that's why it goes faster without added recoil. So we can't use that for comparison.

And, BTW, I did run a few velocities, including the DTammo, with the LCP before I sold it.....
FMJ ammo:
Rem UMC 925.1 and 894.4 fps
Win ValuPac 864.4 and 882.6 fps
MagTec CBC 858.8 and 875.0 fps

JHP ammo:
Fed HydroS 913.1 and 932.7 fps
Rem GS 855.5 and 821.5 fps
Win Ranger 932.6 and 914.8 fps
DoubleTap 995.0 and 992.1 fps heavy recoil noted and severe smiley damage

BB is stating 1100fps with a KelTec P3AT in their data page I posted. Since the LCP should be similar, that's a good bit more than the DT. So I would expect BB recoil to be a bugger!! Never did get to test DT in the P3ATs I had.

og....check usrange.org if you want more, including old Chrony results with the P3AT.

jocko, I agree, DT is hotter than standard factory ammo and I don't like it either. DT's webpage says its standard pressure ammo but the truth is that it's also +p. Maybe not as hot as BB but the recoil says it's hotter than Speer GoldDot. Both DT and BB use the GoldDot bullet and with the DT I couldn't see much difference in expansion or penetration than just plain Speer GD.
My favorite ammo right now is the Winchester Ranger 95gr JHP which has the Black Talon bullet. Not hot like DT and decent recoil. It's listed as law enforcement ammo but can be found for civilian sale sometimes. I was fortunate to find several boxes last year before all the ammo shortage started.
The Ranger is classed as SXT but not the same as regular Winchester SXT available for civilian purchase. The regular SXT uses a different bullet and actually caused some FTF with my pistols. No problems with the Ranger.
Here's a picture of the Ranger box and bullets side by side so you can see the difference.

(Here's a site that claims he's got the 380 Ranger on order....

http://www.tds-us.com/catalog.php/tds/dt44310/Ranger_Talon_LEO

maybe doing a search will find some more, don't remember where I got mine.)

Just some more trivia about the chamber pressure question....

Considering the SAAMI stated chamber pressure of std. .380acp ammo to be 21,500psi, we can do a ballpark estimate of the stress in the Kahr P380 gun barrel. A few assumptions have to be made. First, we don't know the exact alloy used for the Kahr barrel. Typical Lothar stainless barrels for military are some kind of LM50 alloy, closest thing is 17-4ph stainless steel. We don't know the exact heat treatment used, but typical best properties are close to the H1100 values of around 150,000psi Tensile Strength, 130,000psi Yield Strength. These are typical numbers for other heat treated alloys used for gun barrels.
So, using my measurements of the P380 barrel being 0.495" outside diameter, nominal 0.355" inside diameter, gives a wall thickness of 0.070". The mean radius of the barrel is then 0.2125".
Based on the simple formula of PR/t = S, we can calulate the pressure stress in the barrel to be approx. 65,268psi for the std. SAAMI chamber pressure. This leaves a safety factor of 2.3 for rupture, and 2.0 for bulging (yield).
Then when we consider what some are saying +p pressure is, around 25,000psi, calculated stress becomes 75,893psi, dropping safety factor to 2.0, rupture, and 1.7, bulging.
The safety factor based on SAAMI std. pressure is not much, and any imperfections in the barrel would push the limit.
Going to +p pressures, then push the limit even more.

This, as I said, is a ballpark estimate. If anybody knows more about the barrel design, alloy used, etc. please tell us. And if my calcs are way off, please let me know.

FWIW, (for what it's worth, not suggesting anything)
og

oldgranpa said:

This is all very interesting but disturbing in the sense that first it's OK and then it's maybe OK but now it seems it's too risky. Those of you who have fired BB in your LCPs and P380s haven't had a kaboom and only the side plate problem reported. Since it now appears that Kahr is not going to stand behind the P380 if damaged by BB, do we dare shoot it?? Or will Buffalo Bore take the blame for a damaged pistol??
Another question, what pistols does Buffalo Bore say are safe with their ammo?? What pistols have THEY fired it in???

Still waiting for my P380 but I have a box of BB on hand that I bought initially when you all had tried it and said you would even carry it for CCW. So maybe I should take it down to my dealer and let him sell if for me for whatever I can get.

Not too happy about all this and seems Buffalo Bore has sold us some baloney.

og

Click to expand...

Oldgranpa,
You indicate (Since it now appears that Kahr is not going to stand behind the P380 if damaged by BB, do we dare shoot it?? Or will Buffalo Bore take the blame for a damaged pistol??) Where did you get this information?

I am new to the forum and recently got a new Kahr P380. The BB 380 Auto +P Ammo - 100 gr. Hardcast F.N. (1150fps/ M.E. 294 ft. lbs.) seems impressive and I was thinking of using as my carry round as soon as they prove dependable at the range. After reading some of the info on the forum I am not sure.

I have read in the Kahr Q&A section: The Kahr pistol is rated to +P. Why would Kahr not stand behind the pistol that shoots +P rated BB ammo? I know that Justin Moon designed the PM9 for the high powered Corbon ammunition.

Q. Which ammunition is recommended for use with Kahr firearms?

A. Kahr Arms does not endorse any particular brand of ammunition. However, not every brand of ammunition produces the same results. Please check the markings on the barrel hood of your firearm to determine the proper caliber. Kahr suggests a visit to a pistol range to test fire different brands of ammunition in the proper caliber. Kahr cautions against the use of reloads. Lead (unjacketed) bullets can cause excessive fouling and extra attention to cleaning the bore is recommended after firing lead bullets. The Kahr pistol is rated to +P.

Thanks, whardi

kraigster414 said:

If I can my 2-cents....My guess is that Kahr's green light on +P as a general policy in all their guns predates the introduction of so-called +P .380 ammo, i.e., Buffalo Bore (BB). The rub is, that there are no industry (SAAMI) standards for +P .380 so Kahr would be going on a liability limb by endorsing since pressures could be all over the map depending on the comfort zone of the manufacturer. We know for a fact that BB exceeds SAAMI pressure . 380 limits by a relatively substantial margin.

Then again, and Kahr truly needs to confirm one way or the other, they (Kahr) may have extensively test fired BB in the P380 and came to the conclusion it is safe. To be honest, I really don't know. Talk to different folks at Kahr and you get different answers. I was told point blank by a rep at Kahr at a recent LE trade show, "no-go" on .380 +P in the P380 for the reasons stated. The saga continues.

Click to expand...

Strange.. They (Kahr) need to start singing out of the same hymnbook. Below is the response they gave to me:


Yes +P ammo is fine as long as it is American made. Please email me back if you have any other questions.

Ian Burr

Joseph Mayo/Saeilo
10/05/2009 08:31 AM ToIan Burr/[email protected]
cc
SubjectFw: P380 Ammo


----- Forwarded by Joseph Mayo/Saeilo on 10/05/2009 08:30 AM -----
Bill Hardison
10/04/2009 09:59 AM [email protected]
cc
SubjectP380 Ammo

Hello,
I have called Kahr on my dime on numerous occasions and cannot get in touch with anyone. I am given the option to leave a number to call back. I do and no one has to date returned my call.
I will try via email this time.
I recently purchased a P380. There has been much discussion in the forums about the Buffalo Bore ammo. Does Kahr recommend the use of the Buffalo Bore +P ammunition on a limited basis in the P380? I just want to make sure it feeds correctly and then use as my carry ammo. I know that the PM9 was designed for the high powered Corbon ammnition.

Than you..
Please advise,
I have read in your Q&A section: The Kahr pistol is rated to +P.
Q. Which ammunition is recommended for use with Kahr firearms?

A. Kahr Arms does not endorse any particular brand of ammunition. However, not every brand of ammunition produces the same results. Please check the markings on the barrel hood of your firearm to determine the proper caliber. Kahr suggests a visit to a pistol range to test fire different brands of ammunition in the proper caliber. Kahr cautions against the use of reloads. Lead (unjacketed) bullets can cause excessive fouling and extra attention to cleaning the bore is recommended after firing lead bullets. The Kahr pistol is rated to +P.