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I’ll just throw my 2 cents in here as this thread seems to be going down the rabbit hole…… bill is correct in his statements here in that as much as a 22 with a well placed shot is effective, it is still not a reliable SD weapon…. Now as a target shooter or small varmint gun it’s a great option …… enough said !


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Exactly!

Just because a .22 can bring down a bad guy with a well placed shot, does not mean it would make a good self defense and/or carry weapon. There are better options for several reasons. First and foremost is reliability of the gun and ammo, and a close second is that while in a controlled situation (ie at the range), it is likely that a good shooter with plenty of time to aim can make a head shot more often than not even out to great distances. Under real world, stressful situations however it may not play out exactly like that. And if you're going to miss by a few inches and say, hit a shoulder or other non-vital area it would be better to do so with a bigger bullet than a .22.

Then to Bill's point, even if the bigger bullet happens to be a .45acp it does not mean that the misplaced shot would stop the man. But, at least imo (not based on the experience that Bill has), it would likely give him more pause (and therefore give you more time), than the same hit with a .22.
 

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Then to Bill's point, even if the bigger bullet happens to be a .45acp it does not mean that the misplaced shot would stop the man. But, at least imo (not based on the experience that Bill has), it would likely give him more pause (and therefore give you more time), than the same hit with a .22.
That has me thinking...

You mean a larger and more powerful round will do more damage which in turn causes more bleeding and may even break bone? Interesting... A 22lr is 0.23" in diameter compared to a 45acp JHP which, in general, expands between .65" to 1" wide while retaining more weight. I guess that increases damage, tears through more tissue, severs more vains, and encreases the chances of hitting or nicking an artery or vital organ.

What are your thoughts about intermediate barrier penetration? Between a 22lr and small rounds vs rounds the overwhelming number of gun owning civilians around the world use for self defense as well has militaries, law enforcement, private security, special forces, etc use? Seems that no one but me, @BillACP, and a teeny tiny demographic of people think that 22lr - 32 acp and the like are suitable or the best option for self defense. Bill and I think caliber does not matter much.
 

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I’ll just throw my 2 cents in here as this thread seems to be going down the rabbit hole…… bill is correct in his statements here in that as much as a 22 with a well placed shot is effective, it is still not a reliable SD weapon…. Now as a target shooter or small varmint gun it’s a great option …… enough said !


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Exactly!

Just because a .22 can bring down a bad guy with a well placed shot, does not mean it would make a good self defense and/or carry weapon. There are better options for several reasons. First and foremost is reliability of the gun and ammo, and a close second is that while in a controlled situation (ie at the range), it is likely that a good shooter with plenty of time to aim can make a head shot more often than not even out to great distances. Under real world, stressful situations however it may not play out exactly like that. And if you're going to miss by a few inches and say, hit a shoulder or other non-vital area it would be better to do so with a bigger bullet than a .22.

Then to Bill's point, even if the bigger bullet happens to be a .45acp it does not mean that the misplaced shot would stop the man. But, at least imo (not based on the experience that Bill has), it would likely give him more pause (and therefore give you more time), than the same hit with a .22.
With all due respect, you guys are regurgitating an issue with mostly bulk pack 22lr ammo and are indiscriminately applying it like an umbrella over all all 22lr ammo that's being made. There is self defense 22lr ammo that has been extensively tested and has proven to not suffer from the same reliability problems that has afflicted traditional target and varmint 22lr ammo.

All that matters is shot placement, there is reliable 22lr ammo on the market, and that's why I think @BillACP and I should do away with our 380's, 9mm's, and the like. I will probably sell off my S&W 686+ (with 125 grain 357mag )and my Kahr K40 I have been EDCing and will replace them with 22lr. Less recoil, faster follow up shots, so making quick accurate shots will be easier. All that matters is shot placement and accuracy.
 

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What .22lr defense ammo are you speaking of?

The points I believe we should take away from this are:

Shot placement tends to equalize caliber differences. If aim is true, bad day for bad guy. If not, it's anybody's guess who will ultimately fare the worst. And caliber starts to make a bigger difference.
Reliability trumps shot placement. No bang, no placement, no damage. Run.
If the shot is not on target there's a better chance of at least slowing a bad guy down with a larger caliber, assuming the entry point is the same between calibers AND the loads are comparatively equal, ie not +P+ in a 147gr 9mm vs. a normal pressure 185gr .45acp. In other words a jacked up 9mm vs. a standard pressure .45 is not the same as standard pressure cartridges in both. Size means less with hotter loads in the smaller caliber.
A handgun is better than nothing but none that are commonly carried will compare equally to most any rifle chambered in a typical hunting or fighting caliber.

With all due respect you seem to be looking for an argument WellArmed. We tend to try to just get along here, and if necessary agree to disagree.
 

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I picked a used MK9 yesterday morning ata LGS. Matte stainless, basic model, but got a good deal on it. Steel Kahrs are hard to find, and often expensive when you do find one.
View attachment 17068 View attachment 17068
Spot on...I gave $660 for a super clean used K9 Elite '98. I'm currently searching my LGS's for a K40 or MK40 to add to my Kahr collection: PM9, CW45 and K9. If I came across a MK9, I'd probably jump on it.
 

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Update: I managed to find and acquire a super clean MK9 at one of my LGS's while searching for a MK40/K40. Not only that but I got it a discount as the owner is shutting down the business at the end of the year. He's trying to reduce inventory and discounted the $650 tagged price to $475. I jumped all over it. Took possession of the MK9 after the wait period, and finally managed to get it to the range yesterday. As expected, it loaded, fire and ejected about 50 rounds of 115 grain JHPs charged with Bullseye or Power Pistol. Meanwhile, the MK40/K40 search continues...
 
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