Kahr's position on Buffalo Bore Ammo in the P380

21013 Views 7 Replies 1 Participant Last post by jocko, Mar 31, 2009

Discussion Starter · Mar 9, 2009

I asked Kahr what their official position is on the use of high buckin' Buffalo Bore .380 in the P380 billed by BB as +P even though there are no SAAMI standards for .380 +P. Their response: The Kahr P380 WILL handle Buffalo Bore, no problem. Ruger on the other hand has not given the green light on BB for use in the LCP so IMHO the warm fuzzies go to the Kahr P380.

With BB you coming darn close to duplciating the energy of a .38 Special +P out of short barrel wheel gun. Not too shabby when you consider the light weight of the P380, size, concealability, and greater capacity vs a typcial S&W J frame. And coming soon will be a 7-round P380 mag with pinky extension. If you go 7+1 of BB that's mighty impressive little platform to be carrying around.

Just so you know 21,500 psi pressure is the limit established for the .380 by SAAMI. I am not sure what the BB ammo clocks at.

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jocko

· #2 · Mar 30, 2009

is saami sets the limit for the 380 at 21,500 then would not anything over that be considered +p. I would say then there is a standard set for the 380- round at 21,500...
And I would think from what sassi reported over on the elsie forum that he had been in contact with BB and they stated their BB ammo is around 25,000 + and from my view point that is a bunch over what saami says is the limit. (about 20% + or -)

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Discussion Starter · #3 · Mar 30, 2009

jocko said:
is saami sets the limit for the 380 at 21,500 then would not anything over that be considered +p. I would say then there is a standard set for the 380- round at 21,500...
And I would think from what sassi reported over on the elsie forum that he had been in contact with BB and they stated their BB ammo is around 25,000 + and from my view point that is a bunch over what saami says is the limit. (about 20% + or -)

Jocko, it was Mountaingator who posted that information and as an engineer, he did not think that the BB's psi pressure would be enough to cause a catastrophic failure such as we saw in the LCP firing Magtech +P. Keep in mind we still don't know what psi pressure the Magtech +P is putting out. What we do know is that Ruger has now officially stated, "no +P" in the LCP and LCP owners would be wise to heed that advise to be completely safe and on solid ground in the event of a problem.

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Discussion Starter · #4 · Mar 30, 2009

I'd still be careful. I've followed the MagTec+p failure thread and seems he fired as many as 11 rounds before it blew. Maybe I'm wrong and misread it. But if that's true, IMHO, setback could have been a factor.
I have no MagTec+p of the type in question, but I have fired some of the std. 95gr FMJ MagTec. I know some feel smileys are a big todo about nothing, but the MagTec I tried had a horrendous setback of .024" with the LCP I had. If that is typical of all their ammo then, WOW, wonder what that does to chamber pressure??

With DoubleTab during the same test a few rounds that had smileys with only a small setback were then fired using the Chrony and velocity went up. No smiley..995.0 and 992.1fps. The smiley rounds...1027 and 1013fps. DT ammo has OAL longer than any other JHP ammo I've used.

Does anybody have info on the OAL of the MagTec+p ammo. The longer the OAL, the more severe the smiley. And you don't have to care about smileys. Setback can occur with ammo still in the magazine. Before and after measurements are needed.

Again, note this is just "IMHO".

One of the most valuable "accessories" you can have is a chronograph like the Shooting Chrony. Great deals online. The second most valuable is a good caliper.

og

And, BTW, we got heavy setback like that with a SeeCamp LWS 380 with ammo still in the magazine after firing just a few rounds. No smileys involved!

OAL's for some ammo were posted in the thread....
http://p380forum.com/forum/index.php/topic,74.0.html

Note the BB has what I consider a "good" OAL for .380 JHP ammo.

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Discussion Starter · #5 · Mar 30, 2009

hi, kraigster

Now you have a new project. Since you have the P380 and I don't can you do a few setback tests with BB ammo? Not with smileys but just ammo still in the magazine after firing a few rounds.

og.......always curious!!

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Discussion Starter · #6 · Mar 30, 2009

Granpa, with .380 ammo (any .380 ammo) being as scarce as it is, I am limiting any future testing to my home-grown reloads. I gotta tell you, I am so worn out with this Magtech mess that I may just go back to my Daisy BB gun. I would not shoot Magtech +P period until we know more and yes, bullet setback could have been a factor as well as the integrity of the gun itself. I have no desire to find out. I have never fired Magtech, have none to test (nor would I). As for BB it's been fired a lot both in the P3AT, the LCP, and I have tested a few rounds in my P380 with no ill-effects. I am comfortable firing it in the P380 in limited quantity. Ruger on the other hand says no to any +P in their LCP, Keltec has never endorsed +P in thei P3AT, and for the conservative risk taker that should be enough if you own either a LCP or a P3AT - don't ask me about Seecamp or NAA - not familiar with either. The P380 on the other hand is a stronger platform than the P3AT or the LCP and I would not hesitate to rely on BB for carry - but that's me, your mileage may differ. In other words, test a few rounds, make sure it functions and stop. If your gun will feed Gold Dot, it will feed the BB JHP.

Keep in mind BB is potent stuff but it is not necessarily heaven's gift to .380. There are other choices, all of which are non-Plus P and could just as easily get you out of a SHTF situation. I am however impressed with the BB fmj flat nose and the BB hard cast. I have seen some serious penetration specs. But in the end, who knows what a bullet is going to do.

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jocko

· #7 · Mar 30, 2009

olgrandpa

Indeed set back is a serious thing and cannot be measured either and it happens with smileys on the lcp and kt. My opinion is when ur close to the envelope with a round now as far as pressure goes, and you know smileys are present in ur gun, then you have added an unknown to the equation that to me is not worth the risk. I know were all beating the same horse to death here to and it seems we all have our opinions for doing what we are doing, so if you love that +p round then shoot it like there is no tomorrow in your gun that is not rated for +p, which today we don't even know what the hell +p means in a 380 round.

smoke um if u got um..

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jocko

· #8 · Mar 31, 2009

kraigster414 said:
jocko said:

is saami sets the limit for the 380 at 21,500 then would not anything over that be considered +p. I would say then there is a standard set for the 380- round at 21,500...
And I would think from what sassi reported over on the elsie forum that he had been in contact with BB and they stated their BB ammo is around 25,000 + and from my view point that is a bunch over what saami says is the limit. (about 20% + or -)

Click to expand...

Jocko, it was Mountaingator who posted that information and as an engineer, he did not think that the BB's psi pressure would be enough to cause a catastrophic failure such as we saw in the LCP firing Magtech +P. Keep in mind we still don't know what psi pressure the Magtech +P is putting out. What we do know is that Ruger has now officially stated, "no +P" in the LCP and LCP owners would be wise to heed that advise to be completely safe and on solid ground in the event of a problem.

sorry about that. wrong name. Mountaineer is also guessing to. lots of variables in that faulure. It could have with one round started the failure and the next round ended up doing what we seen in the photo. no proof again and just guessing that this all happend on one round only. Metal fatique could have started within those rounds shot. Its always the k-boom round that gets the photos taken, not the rounds before it that could have caused it to start to go bad. 99.995% of all shooters don't check the barrel every shot to see if stress is happening or would even know what stress looks like on a barrel either. I know I wouldn't.

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